Theological confusion

[rikibeth]

Okay. I expected Rick Warren's invocation to be made of fail. However, I am now just CROGGLED.

How do you practically open your invocation with the Shema -- the ultimate statement of pure monotheism -- and THEN go on to address your supplication to Jesus, and do the Lord's Prayer?

I have never really gotten a good handle on how a trinity claims to be a monotheism anyway -- I guess the math is too ineffable for me, or something.

WHY DID HE USE THE SHEMA?

Comments

[greeneyes-rpi.livejournal.com]

Mother-effer mistranslated what is arguably the most sacred prayer of Judaism.

Hear, Oh Israel
The Lord Our God
The Lord is one

Not, as he said, "The Lord is our God." (emphasis his)


My head asplode.

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

I KNOW I KNOW

NOT ENOUGH WTF IN THE WORLD

[gnomi.livejournal.com]

To be fair to him, there are Jewish prayer books (siddurim) that translate it the same way. The phrase "[hashem] elo[k]ainu" can be translated as "the Lord our God" or "the Lord is our God."

[greeneyes-rpi.livejournal.com]

Really? I have not seen this translation. I think it was Warren's emphasis that made it sound like he was somehow taking ownership of God that rubbed me wrong.

Thanks for the info, though! (and icon love!)

[eal.livejournal.com]

eh, we get around it with the whole one god, three persons thing.

Did you notice that he said Obama is a son of an African-American immigrant?

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

I was too croggled!

[fidelioscabinet.livejournal.com]

A.) Because one of the things many Christians want to sell themselves is that they are the New Chosen People, and so they are allowed to appropriate anything they like from Judaism (but of course ignore anything they don't like or find personally inconvenient--big surprise there). It doesn't matter if you thought it was nailed down or not. They have crowbars, no problem.

B.) Because he is, like many evangelical Christians, essentially theologically ignorant.

Is not your brain's fault--the Holy Trinity is one of the most complicated notions in Christianity to grasp as a sensible concept; in fact it's pretty surreal, when you get up close enough to wrestle with it. The notion that there is one big clump of Divinity, spread over three entities purely for the sake of operating convenience--well, on silly days I think "Wonder Twins Triplets powers ACTIVATE!" (Yes, I am full of fail when it comes to properly respectful mindset for approaching religious belief.)

At least he managed to avoid being too obnoxious otherwise, although, as always, I am reminded that Jesus told his followers that they should pray in private, where they wouldn't be overheard, and that the prayers of those who made a point of praying loudly in front of an audience were not necessarily heard in Heaven, for those praying would get their reward on Earth. (For those who have not read the Gospels, allow me to say that Jesus could be pretty catty at times.)

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

A) Oh, I'm well aware of the cherry-picking approach to the Torah -- do I have to say anything more than "God Hates Shrimp?" New Chosen People, feh.

B) JUDAISM, UR DOIN IT WRONG

Where I run into trouble with "three entities for operating convenience," and possibly this comes from early strict-monotheist indoctrination, is if you atart doing that, how do you draw the line at three? Why is five Right Out? I know that when you get to more-complex Judaism there's "aspects" of the divine, but still. Math. Too ineffable.

I found him smarmy and annoying but I usually get that feeling with public prayers.

[kriz1818.livejournal.com]

Or, as I was going to put it - so much less intelligently - he was representin' the position that ALL YOUR RELIGION ARE BELONG TO US.

[fidelioscabinet.livejournal.com]

How do you draw the line at three? Because that's all the entities the theologians can scrape up textual evidence for, I believe. Because the same thought occurs to me--if you can stretch one Divinity over three entities (and, because I am lacking in the proper awe, I am indeed thinking of the confection right now), plus various pieces of shrubbery, clouds, pillars of fire and so on, there really is no limit, especially once you get into the God Is Infinite thing. The only answer I can come up with for the "Why not more than three?" question (which is, to me, an entirely reasonable question) is "If there are more we don't know about them at this time." I believe the Roman Catholics consider this position heretical, but I haven't heard them come up with a really good answer that would stand the test of a small child's inquiries* themselves.



*You know, the sort of dogged picking away at a point that causes the grown-up in the hot seat to fall back on answers like "Because that's the way it is" or "Because I said so" or "Because that's what [Authority X] says." I expect you've been through that sort of interrogation a few times yourself, and can spot the symptoms of desperation in the answers.

[tubin.livejournal.com]

*excited squeal* I've never come across any quote about Jesus telling people to keep their prayers private. Since that's a fundamental piece of my own belief system, I need to track this down.

Any chance you know roughly where I can find this? If you don't know book/chapter/verse - at least context so I can use my google-fu to chase it down?

[dj-ti-99.livejournal.com]

I keep reading Rick Wakeman and then I picture Obama with Yes tunes being played in the background.

I'm still amazed that we have freedom of religion and then show it off by always asking for the Christian god to bless us all. Why wasn't there a Hindu priest, a rabbi, a Buddhist monk, and a Witch up there as well?

Oooh! Even better! A Jedi. How cool would that be?

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

Jedi = just Buddhism lite, with Muppets. It'd be kind of awesome, though.

How about a Pastafarian? Touched by His Noodly Appendage!

"Heart of the Sunrise" would be an awfully nice background piece.

[tubin.livejournal.com]

One reason why some religions are better-represented publicly may relate to the tenets of the religion itself.

Christianity (or at least most major sects of it) accepts a core mission of proselytization - part of practicing the religion is telling others about it, "spreading the word". So Christians are happy to get up and pray to crowds of people.

Other religions may hold their beliefs and prayers as private events. For example, I attended a Hindu wedding a few years ago and those of us who were not Hindu were invited only to the reception, because the ceremony itself was not open to nonbelievers. I can see how this mindset would not lend itself to wanting to give public prayers in front of crowds of nonbelievers...

(this is a brand-new theory that just occurred to me, so feel free to poke holes in it!)

[cathouse-mary.livejournal.com]

It was there. Rick Warren = Much the Fail.

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

I was going OH NO YOU DI'INT so damn hard.

[marydell.livejournal.com]

Jesus=Yaweh, and also =Yaweh's son how is that confusing? ;)

I missed the beginning of the invocation, but incorporating Jewish monotheistic prayers into Christian prayers is pretty much how we roll in my tradition (Catholicism) (um, lapsed in my case).

The way I think of the trinity is as the glass panes of a lantern, except a 3-sided lantern. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each a face, but it's really just one lantern. The Holy Spirit is supposedly on an equal footing with the other two, although we hardly ever talk about it/him, and almost never have prayers directed to it/him. The holy spirit is those little flames over saints' heads in the stained glass windows, though, so he's around.

Anyway, to sum up, this is why I'm a Unitarian in the classic, Emersonian sense of "does not believe in the Trinity."

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

And, see, given the way I was taught Judaism as a small child, I get stuck at "how can the Holy Spirit be a pane of the lantern when it's also THE FLAME INSIDE IT?"

And which is why, as someone raised nominally Jewish and monotheistic, one town over from Emerson's home, I flinch a lot less at Unitarian prayers than I do at most standard Protestant ones, no matter how liberal and progressive the denomination.

Oh, and isn't the Holy Spirit "she" in the senses in which it's not neuter? Or am I confusing things?

[ankaret.livejournal.com]

I'm neither Jewish nor American and even I know that that is Not Right.

[aitchellsee.livejournal.com]

I noticed that the multi-culti Rick Warren also addressed the Almighty as "The Merciful, The Compassionate" (or vice versa, can't quite recall on the fly).

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

I'M IN UR RELIGIONS, STEALIN UR CATCHPHRASES

Now that you point it out, I recognize the appropriation, but I did need it pointed out.

[sapphorlando.livejournal.com]

We're talking about a guy who took the IRS to court (http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090202/wiener) to win an unlimited housing deduction (on top of his already healthy tax-free salary). So I don't really put much stock in anything the guy has to say, and so also have no questions for him. My question is much more, what the hell was Obama thinking by inviting him?

More generally, though, I've always questioned the propriety and supposed purpose in public prayers (http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/article/20090118/OPINION0101/901170326) to begin with.

taxation of clergy compensation.

[bigbrotherinlaw.livejournal.com]

As the Assistant Treasurer of a parish, let me assure you that the clergyperson's salary is NOT tax-free. Yes the IRS rules allow clergy to claim a housing or parsonage allowance, but unless they have the housing to back it up, they will end up paying income tax on the remainder. They will also pay self-employment tax. Warren's salary as head of his megachurch is just small by comparison to the obscene cost of his multimillion dollar home.
http://www.irs.gov/faqs/faq/0,,id=199753,00.html

let me attempt to unravel

[bigbrotherinlaw.livejournal.com]

Observe that despite the fact that the "Lord's Prayer" is attributed Jesus, it is in its formulation one of our most purely monotheistic prayers.

By contrast, Trinitarian prayers may end with formula like:
"...all this we ask in the name of your Son, Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit..." or "...in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

What you may not remember is that the Shema formulation appears in Mark's Gospel, so Warren didn't exactly need to steal it from a siddur.
http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=99539117

As bad as he could have been, I'd say he was restrained.

Re: let me attempt to unravel

[rikibeth.livejournal.com]

What you may not remember is that the Shema formulation appears in Mark's Gospel, so Warren didn't exactly need to steal it from a siddur.

Actually, I never knew that! Huh, the Shema AND the beginning of the V'y'hafta, too.

As I said before, my knowledge of the Gospels especially is REALLY spotty. I know the Christmas story from Luke because of Charlie Brown, I know most of the more aggravating parts of Paul because we did them as background for medieval studies, and I know things that get lots of literary play. Which is why I know them in KJV phrasing, even though I know from a translation viewpoint it's lousy.

It still felt really, really weird to have Judaism's core prayer -- the one you're supposed to DIE with it on your lips -- coming out of the mouth of an evangelical preacher.